BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Forum over pseudo-wetenschap, kwakzalverij, alternatieve 'geneeswijzen' en aanverwante zaken die niet onder wetenschap vallen.

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bonifacius
Diehard
Berichten: 1484
Lid geworden op: 04 mei 2014 23:58

Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

outremer schreef: 19 dec 2023 16:15
bonifacius schreef: 19 dec 2023 14:12 ook Ervin Laszlo zal jou niet kunnen onderrichten want je verwerpt zijn boek(en) al bij voorbaat.
Dus jij weet wat die meneer Laszlo kan en niet kan
Wat ik je schreef is dat Stanislav Grof grote waardering voor meneer Laszlo heeft. Wat meneer Laszlo kan en niet kan weet ik niet.
Dat hij wel wat zinnigs te zeggen heeft maak ik o.a. hier op uit...
Ervin László (1932) is een Hongaars wetenschapsfilosoof. Hij heeft een doctorsgraad van de Sorbonne en is in het bezit van vier eredoctoraten. Hij was eerder hoogleraar filosofie, systeemwetenschap en futurologie aan verscheidene universiteiten in de Verenigde Staten, Europa en het Verre Oosten. Hij houdt zich onder meer bezig met de systeemtheorie en de integrale benadering die momenteel[(sinds) wanneer?] steeds vaker wordt gezocht, onder andere door Ken Wilber. Daarnaast is hij grondlegger van de Club van Boedapest en editor van World Futures: The Journal of General Evolution.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ervin_László
Toch niet de eerste de beste die Ervin László lijkt me.
outremer schreef: 19 dec 2023 16:15
bonifacius schreef: 19 dec 2023 14:12 ook Ervin Laszlo zal jou niet kunnen onderrichten want je verwerpt zijn boek(en) al bij voorbaat.
En je weet ook dat ik er niet voor open zou staan.
Als ik onderstaande zo terug lees...
outremer schreef: 18 dec 2023 19:29 57 euro voor dat boek ?
voor dit bedrag koop ik liever meerdere (vertaalde) tweedehandsboeken uit de periode ergens tussen 2000 jaar voor meneer jezus tot 1500 jaar erna.
en daar staat ook een pak onzin in als je het vergelijkt met de hedendaagse kennis , maar die waren er zelfs "minder" naast dan uw boek.
Heb ik de indruk dat je niet openstaat voor wat meneer Ervin László te zeggen heeft ja.
Anders begrijp ik je schrijven van "maar die waren er zelfs "minder" naast dan uw boek" verkeerd.
Laat maar weten dan.
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
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bonifacius
Diehard
Berichten: 1484
Lid geworden op: 04 mei 2014 23:58

Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

heeck schreef: 19 dec 2023 16:10 De techniek van Spira is bewonderenswaardig;
Geen idee wat je hiermee bedoelt.
heeck schreef: 19 dec 2023 16:10 ... zelfs zo dat Bernardo Kastrup er als een blok voor valt. Laat dat mijn schrale troost voor je tomeloze goedgelovigheid zijn.
Bernardo Kastrup lees ik niet (Ik lees nog maar heel weinig, heb genoeg gelezen in 30 jaar).

Wat zou de techniek van Spira waarvoor Bernado Kastrup valt dan wel zijn volgens jou?
Cold reading, hypnose???
Is effe kijken > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Spira

Ik zie niks over een techniek. Spira is een Engelse spirituele leraar en filosoof staat er te lezen in de wiki over hem.
IK lees ook in de wiki dit (als besluit)...
Career as a spiritual teacher

Spira considers that his spiritual journey started on reading the poetry of Rumi at age fifteen. Following in his parents' footsteps,[7] he studied at Colet House, London under Dr Francis Roles, himself a student of mystic-philosophers Ouspensky and Gurdjieff and the mantra meditation of Swami Shantananda Saraswati. This also led him to an interest in classical Advaita (non-duality) while he also continued to investigate Sufism through the art of Mevlevi Turning, a form of sacred movement combining prayer and meditation. He also read teachings of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi and, in the late 1970s he attended Krishnamurti's last meetings at Brockwood Park.[8]

In the mid-1990s meetings with Robert Adams and Francis Lucille led Spira to the Direct Path teachings of Atmananda Krishna Menon which forms the basis of his own 'no-nonsense' Direct Path approach to spiritual awakening.[9]

In essence Spira teaches that 'The greatest discovery in life is that our essential nature does not share the limits or the destiny of the body and mind'.[10] He suggests that a form of happiness, a satisfying if unexotic 'enlightenment', can be found if one can identify with the I that lies behind the imagined I of feelings and thoughts.
Maar jij meent als stichting SKEPP voorzitter ergens een techniek om (tomeloze) goedgelovigen als o.a. ik en Bernardo Kastrup te misleiden te zien.
Laat maar weten dewelke dan.
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
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bonifacius
Diehard
Berichten: 1484
Lid geworden op: 04 mei 2014 23:58

Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

outremer schreef: 19 dec 2023 16:15 jij weet wat die meneer Laszlo kan en niet kan
heeck schreef: 19 dec 2023 16:10 De techniek van Spira is bewonderenswaardig.
Ik moet na een tijd weg geweest te zijn van dit foum altijd weer wennen aan de denkwijze en focus van de vrijdenker! :lol:
Ik ben zelf ook al meer dan 30 jaar vrijdenker af natuurlijk.
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
Gebruikersavatar
bonifacius
Diehard
Berichten: 1484
Lid geworden op: 04 mei 2014 23:58

Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

Peter van Velzen schreef: 19 dec 2023 01:26 Waar Grof zijn vermaardheid ook aan te danken heeft, zijn theorie over BDE's is even onwetenschappelijk als welke andere dan ook. zie Wikipedia
Jij, men, zal altijd gelovers en niet gelovers vinden rond dit onderwerp.
Uit de wiki link over Stanislav Grof die je plaatste...
Hypothesis on near-death experiences

In the late 1970s Grof proposed a psychological hypothesis to explain the near-death experience (NDE). According to Grof the NDE reflects memories of the birth process with the tunnel representing the birth canal. Susan Blackmore claimed the hypothesis is "pitifully inadequate to explain the NDE. For a start the newborn infant would not see anything like a tunnel as it was being born."[11] The psychologist Chris French has written "the experience of being born is only very superficially similar to the NDE" and the hypothesis has been refuted as it is common for those born by caesarean section to experience a tunnel during the NDE.[12] Michael Shermer also criticized the hypothesis "there is no evidence for infantile memories of any kind. Furthermore, the birth canal does not look like a tunnel and besides the infant's head is normally down and its eyes are closed."[13] An article in the peer-reviewed APA journal Psychology of Consciousness suggested that Grof's patients may have experienced false memories of birth and before birth.
Als je zelf een bijna-dood ervaring hebt gehad, een 'klassieke' of een 'halve' veroorzaakt door 5-Me0-DMT het sterkste psychedelicum te wereld, wat ook psychiater Stanislav Grof gerookt heeft bovenop zijn vele onderzoek en ervaring met LSD vanaf 1967 al wordt het heel moeilijk een niet gelover te blijven.
Zie ook Stanislav Grof eigen worstelen daarmee...
'THE KARMIC TRIANGLE: Time Travel to Ancient Egypt

In 1967, at the time of my immigration to the United States, I was struggling with the problem of past incarnation experiences. I had witnessed them repeatedly in my clients and was impressed and puzzled by the amount and quality of information that was revealed when they surfaced into consciousness. This information involved social structure, ritual and spiritual life, as well as costumes, weapons, and battle strategies of the cultures and historical periods that formed the context of these experiences. The knowledge that these karmic episodes provided by far transcended the intellectual level and educational background of my clients.

I was also deeply impressed by the connections between certain important aspects of these karmic experiences and my clients’ everyday lives—their emotional and psychosomatic problems, difficulties in interpersonal relationships, strange and unexplainable idiosyncrasies or attractions, and reactions to certain people and situations. Even more remarkable was the therapeutic impact that such karmic experiences had when they were fully relived and integrated.

In spite of all this impressive evidence, I found it impossible to accept that we were dealing here with an authentic phenomenon. The conceptual barrier involved was of a qualitatively different level than the one that stood in the way of accepting the capacity of the brain of the newborn to register the ordeal of birth. After all, the brain of the newborn, myelinized or not, is a very complex material system. But the possibility of retrieving memories of entire scenes from times preceding conception, often by centuries, seemed simply too preposterous.

If we subscribe to the materialistic worldview of Western science, ancestral and racial memories would have to be transmitted by the sperm and the ovum, the only material connection we have to events preceding our conception. The carrier of this information would have to be the chromosomes and, more specifically, the DNA. And in the case of past-life memories even this faint material bridge to the past is missing because they cross not only ancestral, but often even racial, hereditary lines. For example, it is not uncommon for Caucasians to have past-life experiences as black Africans, native Americans, or Asians, and vice versa.

It took some powerful personal experiences for me to change my attitude toward past-life memories. This area opened up for me experientially in an LSD session that I had shortly after my arrival in the United States. What happened in this session and around it convinced me that past-life experiences represented authentic phenomena and could not be dismissed as derivatives of events in our everyday life. This extraordinary experience was associated, among others, with remarkable synchronicities that involved other people, who were not present in my session and were not aware that I was having one.

My immigration to the United States, in March 1967, brought about radical changes in my personal, professional, political, and cultural environment.
….

Fragment uit: When the Impossible Happens - Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities
Stanislav Grof M.D., Ph.D.
(published 2006)
Hieronder uit hetzelfde boek over 'the toad' oftewel 5-Me0-DMT ...
GATEWAY TO THE ABSOLUTE: The Secret of the Toad of Light

In the minds of most people, the original source of psychedelic substances is the vegetable kingdom. Since time immemorial, native cultures have used plants with powerful mind-altering properties, “flesh of the gods,” as the main vehicle for their ritual and spiritual life. Much has been written about soma, the legendary visionary plant of the Vedas, different varieties of cannabis, the pre-Columbian sacraments peyote and magic mushrooms (teonanacatl), the sacred shrub eboga used in rituals of African tribes, as well as the South American jungle brew yajé or ayahuasca, and many others.

It is much less known that psychedelic compounds can also be found in the animal kingdom. In 1960, Joe Roberts, a photographer for National Geographic magazine, described an intense psychedelic experience with many elements of science fiction, following his ingestion of the meat of Kyphosus fuscus. This fish, found off Norfolk Island in the South Pacific, has a reputation among the natives for causing powerful and often nightmarish visions.

The most remarkable contribution of the animal kingdom to the repertory of psychedelic users and spiritual seekers comes from the genus Bufo. The toad skin, which contains the psychoactive compound bufotenin, was a regular ingredient of the brews that the witches used in the Middle Ages for inducing the visions of the Sabbath. In the late 1960s, the psychedelic grapevine spread the news about a strange new way of achieving a psychedelic state—by licking the skin secretions of a giant Arizona desert toad, Bufo alvarius. This species can be found only in the Sonoran Desert, stretching over the southern half of Arizona and south to Sonora in Mexico.

Being semiaquatic, these toads must remain in the vicinity of dependable water sources in order to survive. For this reason, their principle habitat is within the drainage of permanent rivers and streams of the Sonoran Desert. Their lifestyle is also supported by the fact that more than one thousand years ago, the Hohokam Indians began diverting water from the Gila River and created a complex system of canals to irrigate the and soil. But even all that would not be sufficient. Bufo alvarius features specialized glands, located particularly on the neck and the limbs. They produce a viscous milky-white secretion that protects them against the heat of the Arizona desert, as well as against enemies.

This secretion contains a high concentration of 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT), a compound with extraordinary psychedelic properties. This substance was first synthetized in the chemical laboratory in 1936, more than twenty years before modern Americans discovered its psychedelic effects. However, Native Americans had known the mind-altering effects of the secretions for centuries and had used them in their shamanic practices. It turned out that the same active principle is also responsible for the effects of psychedelic snuffs of plant origin, such as virola or epená, used by the Tukano, Waika, and Araraibo Indians in Brazil and Venezuela.

The dry material produced by milking and vaporization of the skin secretions of Bufo alvarius by heat contains as much as 15 percent of the active principle. Smoking dried secretions induces within seconds a psychedelic state than can be very psychologically challenging because of the rapidity of its onset and the overwhelming intensity. Smoking or snorting of 5 to 15 milligrams of pure 5-MeO-DMT has similar effects. The discovery of the psychedelic effects of the secretions of Bufo alvarius by the psychedelic generation was a sensation. It inspired the founding of the Church of the Toad of Light, the members of which smoke this material in their ceremonies as a sacrament.

I followed with great interest the reports on Bufo alvarius, as well as an other psychedelic species, Bufo marinus, which is indigenous in Florida. The latter figures prominently in the novels of Carl Hiassen, in which he describes an ex-governor who goes wild and lives in the Everglades licking these toads. Because of my belief that comparing the effects of various psychedelics is an issue of great theoretical importance, I was looking for an opportunity to try this new addition to the entheogenic pharmacopeia. I had had some previous experiences with related tryptamine derivatives—dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and diethyltryptamine (DET) from our early experiments in Prague, and dipropyltryptamine (DPT) from our studies at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center.

I discovered to my dismay that I had missed the opportunity to experiment with Bufo alvarius during one of my earlier visits to Arizona. In the middle of July, in the desert near Tucson, I had experienced a torrential monsoon rain that temporarily transformed the sun-scorched land at the foothills of the Catalina mountain range near Mt. Lemmon into a river that was more than twenty feet wide and four feet deep. Within minutes, the desert floor was covered with thousands of giant toads, which emerged from their underground hideouts, rapidly paired up, and started copulating. Listening to their sonorous croaking filling the air, I was very impressed by this ecstatic celebration of life. However, not being well-versed in amphibian taxonomy, I was unaware that I was witnessing a group orgy of Bufo alvarius and did not get a chance to try their mysterious elixir.

The opportunity to get an insight into the secret of the Toad of Light came when my friend Paul appeared at our door with an impressive supply of 5-MeO-DMT. This substance was not listed in Schedule I—a group of substances considered to have high abuse potential and no therapeutic value—and was readily available for chemists as a starting point for synthesis of other com pounds. My friend had already had earlier experiences with 5-MeO-DMT and offered to provide the necessary instructions and expert guidance.

Under Paul’s supervision, I put a small amount of the white powder on a glass surface and worked on it for a while with a razor blade to make it as fine as possible. I then shaped the powder into two even piles and put the rest of the powder into a pipe filled with dried parsley. While Paul lit the pipe, I rolled a dollar bill into a narrow tube and snorted the two piles, each with a different nostril. When I finished, I took two or three deep drags from the pipe. Later, I estimated the combined dose of 5-MeO-DMT I had taken and realized that it was very high, probably about 25 milligrams.

The beginning of the experience was very sudden and dramatic. I was hit by a cosmic thunderbolt of immense power that instantly shattered and dissolved my everyday reality. I lost all contact with the surrounding world, which completely disappeared as if by magic. In the past, whenever I had taken a high dose of psychedelics, I liked to lie down and make myself comfortable. This time, any such concerns were irrelevant because I lost awareness of my body, as well as of the environment. After the session, I was told that after taking a couple of drags, I sat there for several minutes like a sculpture, holding the pipe near my mouth. Christina and Paul had to take the pipe from my hand and put my body into a reclining position on the couch.

In all my previous sessions, I had always maintained basic orientation. I knew who I was, where I was, and why I was having unusual experiences. This time all this dissolved in a matter of seconds. The awareness of my everyday existence, my name, my whereabouts, and my life disappeared as if by magic. Stan Grof... California ... United States ... planet Earth ... these concepts faintly echoed for a few moments like dreamlike images on the far periphery of my consciousness and then faded away altogether. I tried hard to remind myself of the existence of the realities I used to know, but they suddenly did not make any sense.

In all my previous psychedelic sessions there always had been some rich specific content. The experiences were related to my present lifetime—the story of my childhood, infancy, birth, and embryonal life—or to various themes from the transpersonal domain—my past life experiences, images from human history, archetypal visions of deities and demons, or visits to various mythological domains. This time, none of these dimensions even seemed to exist, et alone manifest. My only reality was a mass of radiant swirling energy of immense proportions that seemed to contain all existence in a condensed and entirely abstract form. I became Consciousness facing the Absolute.

It had the brightness of myriad suns, yet it was not on the same continuum with any light I knew from everyday life. It seemed to be pure consciousness, intelligence, and creative energy transcending all polarities. It was infinite and finite, divine and demonic, terrifying and ecstatic, creative and destructive—all that and much more. I had no concept, no categories for what I was witnessing. I could not maintain a sense of separate existence in the face of such a force. My ordinary identity was shattered and dissolved; I became one with the Source. In retrospect, I believe I must have experienced the Dharmakaya, the Primary Clear Light, which according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bardo Thödol, appears at the moment of our death. It bore some resemblance to what I encountered in my first LSD session, but it was much more over whelming and completely extinguished any sense of my separate identity.

My encounter with the Absolute lasted approximately twenty minutes of clock-time, as measured by external observers. As far as I was concerned, during the entire duration of my experience, time ceased to exist and lost any meaning whatsoever. After what seemed like eternity, concrete dreamlike images and concepts began to form in my experiential field. I started intuiting fleeting images of a cosmos with galaxies, stars, and planets. Later, I gradually visualized a solar system and within it the Earth, with large continents.

Initially, these images were very distant and unreal, but as the experience continued, I started to feel that these realities might actually have objective existence. Gradually, this crystallized further into the images of the United States and California. The last to emerge was the sense of my everyday identity and awareness of my present life. At first, the contact with the ordinary reality was extremely faint. I recognized where I was and what the circumstances were. But I was sure that I had taken a dose that was excessive and that I was actually dying. For some time, I believed that I was experiencing the bardo, the intermediate state between my present life and my birth in the next incarnation, as it is described in the Tibetan texts.

As I was regaining more solid contact with ordinary reality, I reached a point where I knew that I was coming down from a psychedelic session and that I would survive this experiment. I was lying there, still experiencing myself as dying, but now without the sense that my present life was threatened. My dying seemed to be related to scenes from my previous incarnations. I found myself in many dramatic situations happening in different parts of the world throughout centuries, all of them dangerous and painful. Various groups of muscles in my body were twitching and shaking, as my body was hurting and dying in these different contexts. However, as my karmic history was being played out in my body, I was in a state of profound bliss, completely detached from these dramas, which persisted even after all the specific content disappeared from my experience.

When I worked at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, we used to have a term for the condition that many of our clients experienced for many days and sometimes weeks after a good and well-integrated psychedelic session. We called it “psychedelic afterglow.” My afterglow after this experience was unusually intense, profound, and long-lasting. I was able to work on the galleys of my book with extraordinary precision and capacity to concentrate. And yet, when I decided to take a break and closed my eyes, I was within seconds in a state of ecstatic rapture and experienced a sense of oneness with everything. My meditations were unusually deep, and they seemed to be the most natural state I could imagine.

As time went by, everyday sober reality succeeded in regaining some of its ground and made this window to the Absolute more opaque. However, the session left me with deep respect and appreciation for the power of the tools used by shamans. I have often had to laugh at the arrogance of mainstream psychiatrists, who see shamanic techniques as products of primitive superstition and consider their own ploys, such as free associating on the couch or behaviorist deconditioning, to be superior and scientific approaches to the human psyche.

Since this experience I also have new appreciation for the tenet of various esoteric systems that the most noble truth is often found in the most lowly. According to the alchemists, “the Stone is hiding in the filth and dung.” For me, it was the toad, an animal that is often seen as a symbol of ugliness, that showed me the shortest and fastest way to the Absolute. I am reminded of it every time I hear or read the famous passage from Shakespeare’s As You Like It:

Which like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.
I would not change it.


Fragment uit: When the Impossible Happens - Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities
Stanislav Grof M.D., Ph.D.
(published 2006)
Met één van de meerdere filmpjes over Stanislav Grof op YouTube erbij...

- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
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TIBERIUS CLAUDIUS
Superposter
Berichten: 8393
Lid geworden op: 02 mei 2017 18:24
Locatie: CAPRI

Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door TIBERIUS CLAUDIUS »

bonifacius schreef: 20 dec 2023 00:04
Peter van Velzen schreef: 19 dec 2023 01:26 Waar Grof zijn vermaardheid ook aan te danken heeft, zijn theorie over BDE's is even onwetenschappelijk als welke andere dan ook. zie Wikipedia
Jij, men, zal altijd gelovers en niet gelovers vinden rond dit onderwerp.
Uit de wiki link over Stanislav Grof die je plaatste...
Hypothesis on near-death experiences

In the late 1970s Grof proposed a psychological hypothesis to explain the near-death experience (NDE). According to Grof the NDE reflects memories of the birth process with the tunnel representing the birth canal. Susan Blackmore claimed the hypothesis is "pitifully inadequate to explain the NDE. For a start the newborn infant would not see anything like a tunnel as it was being born."[11] The psychologist Chris French has written "the experience of being born is only very superficially similar to the NDE" and the hypothesis has been refuted as it is common for those born by caesarean section to experience a tunnel during the NDE.[12] Michael Shermer also criticized the hypothesis "there is no evidence for infantile memories of any kind. Furthermore, the birth canal does not look like a tunnel and besides the infant's head is normally down and its eyes are closed."[13] An article in the peer-reviewed APA journal Psychology of Consciousness suggested that Grof's patients may have experienced false memories of birth and before birth.
Als je zelf een bijna-dood ervaring hebt gehad, een 'klassieke' of een 'halve' veroorzaakt door 5-Me0-DMT het sterkste psychedelicum te wereld, wat ook psychiater Stanislav Grof gerookt heeft bovenop zijn vele onderzoek en ervaring met LSD vanaf 1967 al wordt het heel moeilijk een niet gelover te blijven.
Zie ook Stanislav Grof eigen worstelen daarmee...
'THE KARMIC TRIANGLE: Time Travel to Ancient Egypt

In 1967, at the time of my immigration to the United States, I was struggling with the problem of past incarnation experiences. I had witnessed them repeatedly in my clients and was impressed and puzzled by the amount and quality of information that was revealed when they surfaced into consciousness. This information involved social structure, ritual and spiritual life, as well as costumes, weapons, and battle strategies of the cultures and historical periods that formed the context of these experiences. The knowledge that these karmic episodes provided by far transcended the intellectual level and educational background of my clients.

I was also deeply impressed by the connections between certain important aspects of these karmic experiences and my clients’ everyday lives—their emotional and psychosomatic problems, difficulties in interpersonal relationships, strange and unexplainable idiosyncrasies or attractions, and reactions to certain people and situations. Even more remarkable was the therapeutic impact that such karmic experiences had when they were fully relived and integrated.

In spite of all this impressive evidence, I found it impossible to accept that we were dealing here with an authentic phenomenon. The conceptual barrier involved was of a qualitatively different level than the one that stood in the way of accepting the capacity of the brain of the newborn to register the ordeal of birth. After all, the brain of the newborn, myelinized or not, is a very complex material system. But the possibility of retrieving memories of entire scenes from times preceding conception, often by centuries, seemed simply too preposterous.

If we subscribe to the materialistic worldview of Western science, ancestral and racial memories would have to be transmitted by the sperm and the ovum, the only material connection we have to events preceding our conception. The carrier of this information would have to be the chromosomes and, more specifically, the DNA. And in the case of past-life memories even this faint material bridge to the past is missing because they cross not only ancestral, but often even racial, hereditary lines. For example, it is not uncommon for Caucasians to have past-life experiences as black Africans, native Americans, or Asians, and vice versa.

It took some powerful personal experiences for me to change my attitude toward past-life memories. This area opened up for me experientially in an LSD session that I had shortly after my arrival in the United States. What happened in this session and around it convinced me that past-life experiences represented authentic phenomena and could not be dismissed as derivatives of events in our everyday life. This extraordinary experience was associated, among others, with remarkable synchronicities that involved other people, who were not present in my session and were not aware that I was having one.

My immigration to the United States, in March 1967, brought about radical changes in my personal, professional, political, and cultural environment.
….

Fragment uit: When the Impossible Happens - Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities
Stanislav Grof M.D., Ph.D.
(published 2006)
Hieronder uit hetzelfde boek over 'the toad' oftewel 5-Me0-DMT ...
GATEWAY TO THE ABSOLUTE: The Secret of the Toad of Light

In the minds of most people, the original source of psychedelic substances is the vegetable kingdom. Since time immemorial, native cultures have used plants with powerful mind-altering properties, “flesh of the gods,” as the main vehicle for their ritual and spiritual life. Much has been written about soma, the legendary visionary plant of the Vedas, different varieties of cannabis, the pre-Columbian sacraments peyote and magic mushrooms (teonanacatl), the sacred shrub eboga used in rituals of African tribes, as well as the South American jungle brew yajé or ayahuasca, and many others.

It is much less known that psychedelic compounds can also be found in the animal kingdom. In 1960, Joe Roberts, a photographer for National Geographic magazine, described an intense psychedelic experience with many elements of science fiction, following his ingestion of the meat of Kyphosus fuscus. This fish, found off Norfolk Island in the South Pacific, has a reputation among the natives for causing powerful and often nightmarish visions.

The most remarkable contribution of the animal kingdom to the repertory of psychedelic users and spiritual seekers comes from the genus Bufo. The toad skin, which contains the psychoactive compound bufotenin, was a regular ingredient of the brews that the witches used in the Middle Ages for inducing the visions of the Sabbath. In the late 1960s, the psychedelic grapevine spread the news about a strange new way of achieving a psychedelic state—by licking the skin secretions of a giant Arizona desert toad, Bufo alvarius. This species can be found only in the Sonoran Desert, stretching over the southern half of Arizona and south to Sonora in Mexico.

Being semiaquatic, these toads must remain in the vicinity of dependable water sources in order to survive. For this reason, their principle habitat is within the drainage of permanent rivers and streams of the Sonoran Desert. Their lifestyle is also supported by the fact that more than one thousand years ago, the Hohokam Indians began diverting water from the Gila River and created a complex system of canals to irrigate the and soil. But even all that would not be sufficient. Bufo alvarius features specialized glands, located particularly on the neck and the limbs. They produce a viscous milky-white secretion that protects them against the heat of the Arizona desert, as well as against enemies.

This secretion contains a high concentration of 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT), a compound with extraordinary psychedelic properties. This substance was first synthetized in the chemical laboratory in 1936, more than twenty years before modern Americans discovered its psychedelic effects. However, Native Americans had known the mind-altering effects of the secretions for centuries and had used them in their shamanic practices. It turned out that the same active principle is also responsible for the effects of psychedelic snuffs of plant origin, such as virola or epená, used by the Tukano, Waika, and Araraibo Indians in Brazil and Venezuela.

The dry material produced by milking and vaporization of the skin secretions of Bufo alvarius by heat contains as much as 15 percent of the active principle. Smoking dried secretions induces within seconds a psychedelic state than can be very psychologically challenging because of the rapidity of its onset and the overwhelming intensity. Smoking or snorting of 5 to 15 milligrams of pure 5-MeO-DMT has similar effects. The discovery of the psychedelic effects of the secretions of Bufo alvarius by the psychedelic generation was a sensation. It inspired the founding of the Church of the Toad of Light, the members of which smoke this material in their ceremonies as a sacrament.

I followed with great interest the reports on Bufo alvarius, as well as an other psychedelic species, Bufo marinus, which is indigenous in Florida. The latter figures prominently in the novels of Carl Hiassen, in which he describes an ex-governor who goes wild and lives in the Everglades licking these toads. Because of my belief that comparing the effects of various psychedelics is an issue of great theoretical importance, I was looking for an opportunity to try this new addition to the entheogenic pharmacopeia. I had had some previous experiences with related tryptamine derivatives—dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and diethyltryptamine (DET) from our early experiments in Prague, and dipropyltryptamine (DPT) from our studies at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center.

I discovered to my dismay that I had missed the opportunity to experiment with Bufo alvarius during one of my earlier visits to Arizona. In the middle of July, in the desert near Tucson, I had experienced a torrential monsoon rain that temporarily transformed the sun-scorched land at the foothills of the Catalina mountain range near Mt. Lemmon into a river that was more than twenty feet wide and four feet deep. Within minutes, the desert floor was covered with thousands of giant toads, which emerged from their underground hideouts, rapidly paired up, and started copulating. Listening to their sonorous croaking filling the air, I was very impressed by this ecstatic celebration of life. However, not being well-versed in amphibian taxonomy, I was unaware that I was witnessing a group orgy of Bufo alvarius and did not get a chance to try their mysterious elixir.

The opportunity to get an insight into the secret of the Toad of Light came when my friend Paul appeared at our door with an impressive supply of 5-MeO-DMT. This substance was not listed in Schedule I—a group of substances considered to have high abuse potential and no therapeutic value—and was readily available for chemists as a starting point for synthesis of other com pounds. My friend had already had earlier experiences with 5-MeO-DMT and offered to provide the necessary instructions and expert guidance.

Under Paul’s supervision, I put a small amount of the white powder on a glass surface and worked on it for a while with a razor blade to make it as fine as possible. I then shaped the powder into two even piles and put the rest of the powder into a pipe filled with dried parsley. While Paul lit the pipe, I rolled a dollar bill into a narrow tube and snorted the two piles, each with a different nostril. When I finished, I took two or three deep drags from the pipe. Later, I estimated the combined dose of 5-MeO-DMT I had taken and realized that it was very high, probably about 25 milligrams.

The beginning of the experience was very sudden and dramatic. I was hit by a cosmic thunderbolt of immense power that instantly shattered and dissolved my everyday reality. I lost all contact with the surrounding world, which completely disappeared as if by magic. In the past, whenever I had taken a high dose of psychedelics, I liked to lie down and make myself comfortable. This time, any such concerns were irrelevant because I lost awareness of my body, as well as of the environment. After the session, I was told that after taking a couple of drags, I sat there for several minutes like a sculpture, holding the pipe near my mouth. Christina and Paul had to take the pipe from my hand and put my body into a reclining position on the couch.

In all my previous sessions, I had always maintained basic orientation. I knew who I was, where I was, and why I was having unusual experiences. This time all this dissolved in a matter of seconds. The awareness of my everyday existence, my name, my whereabouts, and my life disappeared as if by magic. Stan Grof... California ... United States ... planet Earth ... these concepts faintly echoed for a few moments like dreamlike images on the far periphery of my consciousness and then faded away altogether. I tried hard to remind myself of the existence of the realities I used to know, but they suddenly did not make any sense.

In all my previous psychedelic sessions there always had been some rich specific content. The experiences were related to my present lifetime—the story of my childhood, infancy, birth, and embryonal life—or to various themes from the transpersonal domain—my past life experiences, images from human history, archetypal visions of deities and demons, or visits to various mythological domains. This time, none of these dimensions even seemed to exist, et alone manifest. My only reality was a mass of radiant swirling energy of immense proportions that seemed to contain all existence in a condensed and entirely abstract form. I became Consciousness facing the Absolute.

It had the brightness of myriad suns, yet it was not on the same continuum with any light I knew from everyday life. It seemed to be pure consciousness, intelligence, and creative energy transcending all polarities. It was infinite and finite, divine and demonic, terrifying and ecstatic, creative and destructive—all that and much more. I had no concept, no categories for what I was witnessing. I could not maintain a sense of separate existence in the face of such a force. My ordinary identity was shattered and dissolved; I became one with the Source. In retrospect, I believe I must have experienced the Dharmakaya, the Primary Clear Light, which according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bardo Thödol, appears at the moment of our death. It bore some resemblance to what I encountered in my first LSD session, but it was much more over whelming and completely extinguished any sense of my separate identity.

My encounter with the Absolute lasted approximately twenty minutes of clock-time, as measured by external observers. As far as I was concerned, during the entire duration of my experience, time ceased to exist and lost any meaning whatsoever. After what seemed like eternity, concrete dreamlike images and concepts began to form in my experiential field. I started intuiting fleeting images of a cosmos with galaxies, stars, and planets. Later, I gradually visualized a solar system and within it the Earth, with large continents.

Initially, these images were very distant and unreal, but as the experience continued, I started to feel that these realities might actually have objective existence. Gradually, this crystallized further into the images of the United States and California. The last to emerge was the sense of my everyday identity and awareness of my present life. At first, the contact with the ordinary reality was extremely faint. I recognized where I was and what the circumstances were. But I was sure that I had taken a dose that was excessive and that I was actually dying. For some time, I believed that I was experiencing the bardo, the intermediate state between my present life and my birth in the next incarnation, as it is described in the Tibetan texts.

As I was regaining more solid contact with ordinary reality, I reached a point where I knew that I was coming down from a psychedelic session and that I would survive this experiment. I was lying there, still experiencing myself as dying, but now without the sense that my present life was threatened. My dying seemed to be related to scenes from my previous incarnations. I found myself in many dramatic situations happening in different parts of the world throughout centuries, all of them dangerous and painful. Various groups of muscles in my body were twitching and shaking, as my body was hurting and dying in these different contexts. However, as my karmic history was being played out in my body, I was in a state of profound bliss, completely detached from these dramas, which persisted even after all the specific content disappeared from my experience.

When I worked at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, we used to have a term for the condition that many of our clients experienced for many days and sometimes weeks after a good and well-integrated psychedelic session. We called it “psychedelic afterglow.” My afterglow after this experience was unusually intense, profound, and long-lasting. I was able to work on the galleys of my book with extraordinary precision and capacity to concentrate. And yet, when I decided to take a break and closed my eyes, I was within seconds in a state of ecstatic rapture and experienced a sense of oneness with everything. My meditations were unusually deep, and they seemed to be the most natural state I could imagine.

As time went by, everyday sober reality succeeded in regaining some of its ground and made this window to the Absolute more opaque. However, the session left me with deep respect and appreciation for the power of the tools used by shamans. I have often had to laugh at the arrogance of mainstream psychiatrists, who see shamanic techniques as products of primitive superstition and consider their own ploys, such as free associating on the couch or behaviorist deconditioning, to be superior and scientific approaches to the human psyche.

Since this experience I also have new appreciation for the tenet of various esoteric systems that the most noble truth is often found in the most lowly. According to the alchemists, “the Stone is hiding in the filth and dung.” For me, it was the toad, an animal that is often seen as a symbol of ugliness, that showed me the shortest and fastest way to the Absolute. I am reminded of it every time I hear or read the famous passage from Shakespeare’s As You Like It:

Which like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.
I would not change it.


Fragment uit: When the Impossible Happens - Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities
Stanislav Grof M.D., Ph.D.
(published 2006)
Met één van de meerdere filmpjes over Stanislav Grof op YouTube erbij...

Ik dacht eigenlijk dat dit een Nederlands forum was.
Het lijkt me dat ik me heb vergist. :lol:
En als er nu meer keizers zijn geweest dan maanden, wat dan, geachte senatoren?
outremer
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door outremer »

Passen dromen eigenlijk ook in dit plaatje ?
Die kunnen soms ook wel redelijk intens zijn.

Voor de duidelijkheid : ik bedoel dit al een serieuze vraag hé.
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Peter van Velzen
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door Peter van Velzen »

bonifacius schreef: 20 dec 2023 00:04 Uit de wiki link over Stanislav Grof die je plaatste...
Hypothesis on near-death experiences

In the late 1970s Grof proposed a psychological hypothesis to explain the near-death experience (NDE). According to Grof the NDE reflects memories of the birth process with the tunnel representing the birth canal. Susan Blackmore claimed the hypothesis is "pitifully inadequate to explain the NDE. For a start the newborn infant would not see anything like a tunnel as it was being born."[11] The psychologist Chris French has written "the experience of being born is only very superficially similar to the NDE" and the hypothesis has been refuted as it is common for those born by caesarean section to experience a tunnel during the NDE.[12] Michael Shermer also criticized the hypothesis "there is no evidence for infantile memories of any kind. Furthermore, the birth canal does not look like a tunnel and besides the infant's head is normally down and its eyes are closed."[13] An article in the peer-reviewed APA journal Psychology of Consciousness suggested that Grof's patients may have experienced false memories of birth and before birth.
Als je zelf een bijna-dood ervaring hebt gehad, een 'klassieke' of een 'halve' veroorzaakt door 5-Me0-DMT het sterkste psychedelicum te wereld, wat ook psychiater Stanislav Grof gerookt heeft bovenop zijn vele onderzoek en ervaring met LSD vanaf 1967 al wordt het heel moeilijk een niet gelover te blijven.
Zie ook Stanislav Grof eigen worstelen daarmee...
Ik neem zonder meer aan dat iemand die psychedelisch middelen heeft geslikt, rare ideeën krijgt en zich bij voorbeeld verbeeldt dat een kind het "geboortekanaal" als een tunnel ervaart. Ik acht dat idee evenwel volstrekt onjuist.
Ik wens u alle goeds
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bonifacius
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

Peter van Velzen schreef: 21 dec 2023 02:31 Ik neem zonder meer aan dat iemand die psychedelisch middelen heeft geslikt, rare ideeën krijgt en zich bij voorbeeld verbeeldt dat een kind het "geboortekanaal" als een tunnel ervaart. Ik acht dat idee evenwel volstrekt onjuist.
Met rare ideeën bedoel je "hallucinaties" en dromen (waarvan de meest bedrog zijn - liedje van Marco Borsato), pure verbeelding die nergens op slaat. :roll:
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
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bonifacius
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

outremer schreef: 20 dec 2023 15:58 Passen dromen eigenlijk ook in dit plaatje ?
Die kunnen soms ook wel redelijk intens zijn.

Voor de duidelijkheid : ik bedoel dit al een serieuze vraag hé.
Als we over dromen beginnen komen we bij Jung uit en we weten wat de wetenschap daar over zegt hé.
De huidige stand van de wetenschap: negatief oordeel over psychoanalyse

https://skepp.be/nl/psychoanalyse-freud-jung-lacan
Wat zijn de feiten en wat zegt de wetenschap?

Jung geldt in de hedendaagse wetenschappelijk georiënteerde psychologie of psychiatrie helemaal niet als een autoriteit. Jung was een notoir gelover in astrologie, spiritualisme, telepathie, telekinie, helderziendheid en extrasensorische waarneming.
...

https://skepp.be/nl/insights-discovery-r
Ok, dat zegt stichting SKEPP en de wetenschap over Jung.
Nu is zien wat vermaard psychiater Stanislav Grof over Jung zegt...
'The work with holotropic states of consciousness has made it possible to bring clarity and simplification into the hopeless labyrinth of Western schools of psychotherapy and to create a comprehensive map of the psyche as described in an earlier chapter, which also provides a bridge to the spiritual traditions of the East. In this module, we will follow the development of the maps of the human psyche from a historical perspective. We will show which ideas from the founders of these schools withstood the test of time and have been supported by the findings of holotropic research, and which need to be modified or replaced.

'We will begin the story of the search for the map of the human psyche with the father of depth psychology, Austrian neurologist Sigmund Freud, and also Alfred Adler, Wilhelm Reich and Otto Rank.

(knip - stuk tussen uitgelaten, zie note onder)

...and the list of famous psychoanalytic renegades would not be complete without Carl Gustav Jung, who was initially one of Freud’s favorite disciples and the designated “crown prince” of psychoanalysis. Jung’s revisions were by far the most radical and his contributions were truly revolutionary. It is not an exaggeration to say that his work moved psychiatry as far beyond Freud as Freud’s discoveries were ahead of his own time. Jung’s analytical psychology is not just a variety or modification of psychoanalysis; it represents an entirely new concept of depth psychology and psychotherapy.

Jung was well aware that his findings could not be reconciled with Cartesian-Newtonian thinking and that they required a drastic revision of the most fundamental philosophical assumptions of Western science. He was deeply interested in the revolutionary developments of quantum relativistic physics and had fruitful exchanges with some of its founders, including Wolfgang Pauli and Albert Einstein. Unlike the rest of the theoreticians of psychoanalysis, Jung also had a genuine understanding of the mystical traditions and a great respect for the spiritual dimensions of the psyche and of human existence. Jung was the first transpersonal psychologist, although he didn’t call himself one.

Jung can also be considered the first modern psychologist. The differences between Freudian psychoanalysis and Jung’s analytical psychology are representative of the differences between classical and modern psychotherapy. Although Freud and some of his followers proposed rather radical revisions of Western psychology, only Jung challenged its very core and its philosophical foundations—monistic materialism and the Cartesian-Newtonian paradigm. As June Singer so clearly pointed out, he stressed “the importance of the unconscious rather than of consciousness, the mysterious rather than the known, the mystical rather than the scientific, the creative rather than the productive, [and] the religious rather than the profane” (Singer 1994).

Jung’s concept of the human psyche represented a major expansion beyond Freud’s biographical model. His radical departure from Freud’s psychoanalysis started when he was analyzing a collection of poetry and prose by the American writer Miss Frank Miller, which was published in Geneva by Theodore Flournoy and became known as the Miller Fantasies (Miller 1906). He discovered that many motifs in her writing had parallels in the literature of various countries around the world, as well as different historical periods. His book Symbols of Transformation, inspired by this research, is a work of major historical importance as a landmark of his break with Freud (Jung 1956).

These observations were further confirmed through the analysis of patients’ dreams, fantasies, and the hallucinations and delusions of his schizophrenic patients, along with his own dream life. This convinced him that we do not have only the Freudian individual unconscious, a psychobiological junkyard of rejected instinctual tendencies, repressed memories, and subconsciously assimilated prohibitions, but also a collective unconscious, the manifestation of an intelligent and creative cosmic force, which binds us to all humanity, nature, and the entire cosmos.

Jung’s collective unconscious has a historical domain, which contains the entire history of humanity, and the archetypal domain, which harbors the cultural heritage of mankind—mythologies from every culture that has ever existed. In holotropic states of consciousness, we can experience visions of characters and scenes from these mythologies, even if we do not have any previous intellectual knowledge of them. Exploring the collective unconscious, Jung discovered universal principles governing the dynamics of this domain of the psyche. He first referred to them as “primordial images”—using a term that he borrowed from Jacob Burckhardt; later he called them “dominants of the collective unconscious” and, finally, “archetypes.” According to the understanding that has emerged from Jungian psychology, consciousness research, and scholarly mythological research, archetypes are timeless, primordial cosmic principles underlying and informing the fabric of the material world (Jung 1959).

Jung put great emphasis on the unconscious and its dynamics, but his concept of it was radically different from Freud’s. Jung did not see the human being as a biological machine. He recognized that humans can transcend the narrow boundaries of their egos and of the personal unconscious and connect with the Self that is commensurate with the entire cosmos. Jung saw the psyche as a complementary interplay between its conscious and unconscious elements, with a constant energy exchange and flow between the two. According to him, the unconscious is not governed by historical determinism alone, but also has a projective, finalistic, teleological function. The Self has a specific goal or purpose for each of us and can guide us to it. Jung referred to this as the individuation process.

Studying the specific dynamics of the unconscious through the association experiment, Jung discovered its functional units, for which he coined the term complexes. Complexes are constellations of psychological elements—ideas, opinions, attitudes, and convictions—that are clustered around a nuclear theme and associated with distinct feelings (Jung 1960). Jung was able to trace complexes from biographically determined motifs to archetypes of the collective unconscious (Jung 1959).

In his early work, Jung saw a similarity between archetypes and animal instincts, and thought that they were hard-wired in the human brain. Later on, while studying instances of extraordinary coincidences, such as dreams or visions, with events in the external world (synchronicities), he concluded that the archetypes must be in some way influencing the very fabric of the world (Jung 1960a). As they seemed to represent a link between matter and psyche or consciousness, he referred to them as psychoids, borrowing a term coined by the founder of vitalism, Hans Driesch.

Comparative religion and world mythology can be seen as unique sources of information about the collective aspects of the unconscious. According to Freud, myths can be interpreted in terms of the characteristic problems and conflicts of childhood, and their universality reflects the commonality of human experience. Jung found this explanation unacceptable; he repeatedly observed that the universal mythological motifs (mythologems) occurred in individuals for whom all intellectual knowledge of this kind was absolutely out of the question. This suggested to him that there were myth-forming structural elements in the unconscious psyche that gave rise both to the fantasy lives and dreams of individuals and to the mythology of peoples. Dreams can thus be seen as individual myths, and myths as collective dreams.

Freud showed a very deep interest in religion and spirituality throughout his life. He believed that it was possible to get a rational grasp of the irrational processes and tended to interpret religion in terms of unresolved conflicts from the infantile stage of psychosexual development. In contrast to Freud, Jung was willing to accept the irrational, paradoxical, and even mysterious. He had many religious experiences during his lifetime that convinced him of the reality of the spiritual dimension in the universal scheme of things. Jung’s basic assumption was that the spiritual element is an organic and integral part of the psyche. Genuine spirituality is an aspect of the collective unconscious and is independent of childhood programming and the individual’s cultural or educational background. Thus, if self-exploration and self-analysis reach sufficient depth, spiritual elements emerge spontaneously into consciousness.

Jung also differed from Freud in his understanding of the central concept of psychoanalysis, that of the libido. He did not see it as a strictly biological force aiming for mechanical discharge, but as a creative force of nature—a cosmic principle comparable to Aristotle’s entelechy or Henri Bergson’s élan vital. Jung’s genuine appreciation of spirituality and his understanding of libido as a cosmic force found their expression in a unique concept regarding the function of symbols. For Freud, a symbol was an analogous expression of, or allusion to, something already known; its function was comparable to that of a traffic sign. In psychoanalysis, one image is used instead of another one, usually of a forbidden sexual nature. Jung disagreed with this use of the term symbol and referred to Freudian symbols as signs. For him, a true symbol points beyond itself into a higher level of consciousness. It is the best possible formulation of something that is unknown, an archetype that cannot be represented more clearly or specifically.

What truly makes Jung the first modern psychologist is his scientific method. Freud’s approach was strictly historical and deterministic; he was interested in finding rational explanations for all psychic phenomena and tracing them back to biological roots, following the chains of linear causality. Jung was aware that linear causality is not the only mandatory connecting principle in nature. He originated the concept of synchronicity—an acausal connecting principle that refers to meaningful coincidences of events separated in time and/or space. Jung’s willingness to enter the realm of the paradoxical, mysterious, and ineffable also included an open-minded attitude toward the great Eastern spiritual philosophies. He studied and commented on the I Ching, Bardo Thödol, Secret of the Golden Flower, and awakening of Kundalini. Among his esoteric interests were also astrology, mediumship, and other psychic phenomena (Jung 1958, 1967, 1970, 1995, 1996).

The observations from psychedelic experiences and other types of holotropic states of consciousness have repeatedly confirmed most of Jung’s brilliant insights. Although even Jung’s analytical psychology does not adequately cover the entire spectrum of phenomena occurring in holotropic states, it requires the least revisions or modifications of all the schools of depth psychology. On the biographical level, Jung’s description of psychological complexes bears some similarity to COEX systems, although the two concepts are not identical. Jung and his followers were aware of the importance of the death-rebirth process in mythology, and studied its various forms from ancient Greek mysteries to the rites of passage of aboriginal cultures. However, Jung was not able to see the close connection between this process and biological birth.

Jung, who discovered and described the vast domains of the historical and archetypal collective unconscious, was not able to accept that birth is a psychotrauma and plays an important role in the human psyche. In an interview, which is now available under the name Jung on Film, Richard I. Evans asked Jung what he thought about the theory of his colleague Otto Rank attributing psychological significance to the trauma of birth. Jung laughingly dismissed this idea: “Oh, birth is not a trauma, it is a fact; everybody is born” (Jung 1957).

Jung’s most fundamental contribution to psychotherapy is his recognition of the spiritual dimensions of the psyche and his discoveries in the transpersonal realms. Observations from holotropic states have brought strong support for the existence of the collective unconscious and the archetypal world, Jung’s understanding of the nature of libido, his distinction between the ego and the Self, the recognition of the creative and prospective function of the unconscious, and the concept of the individuation process.

All these elements can be independently confirmed by observations in psychedelic and Holotropic Breathwork sessions, even with unsophisticated subjects. Material of this kind also frequently emerges in sessions guided by therapists who are not Jungians, and even those who have no knowledge of Jungian psychology. In a more specific way, analytical psychology is very useful in understanding various archetypal images and themes that surface spontaneously in experiential sessions. Deep experiential work has also independently confirmed Jung’s observations on the significance of synchronicity.

The differences between the concepts presented in this encyclopedia and Jung’s theories are relatively minor as compared to the far-reaching correlations. It has already been mentioned that the concept of the COEX system is similar, but not identical to Jung’s description of a psychological complex. Jungian psychology has a good general understanding of the process of psychospiritual death-rebirth as an archetypal theme, but does not recognize the perinatal level of the unconscious and the importance of the trauma of birth.

Perinatal phenomena, with their emphasis on birth and death, represent a critical interface between individual biography and the transpersonal realms. Deep experiential confrontation with this level of the psyche is typically associated with the sense of a serious threat to survival and with a life-death struggle. Death-rebirth experiences have an important biological dimension; they are often accompanied by a broad spectrum of intense physiological manifestations, such as feelings of suffocation, pain in different parts of the body, tremors, cardiovascular distress, hypersalivation, sweating, nausea and vomiting, and on rare occasions, unintentional urination.

In Jungian analysis, which uses more subtle techniques than psychedelic therapy or some of the new powerful experiential approaches, the emphasis is on the psychological, philosophical, and spiritual dimensions of the death-rebirth process, while the psychosomatic components are seldom, if ever, effectively dealt with. In experiential psychotherapy, one always encounters an amalgam of actual fetal memories of biological birth and concomitant themes from the archetypal and historical collective unconscious. Swiss psychologist Arny Mindell and his wife Amy have introduced the missing somatic elements into Jungian analysis by developing what they call process psychotherapy (Mindell 2001).

In the transpersonal realm, Jungian psychology seems to have explored certain categories of experiences in considerable detail, while entirely neglecting others. The areas that have been discovered and thoroughly studied by Jung and his followers include the dynamics of the archetypes and the collective unconscious, mythopoetic properties of the psyche, certain types of psychic phenomena, and synchronistic links between psychological processes and the world of matter.

There seem to be no references, however, to transpersonal experiences that involve authentic identification with other people, animals, plants, and inorganic processes that can mediate access to new information about these elements of the material world. Considering Jung’s deep interest and scholarship in the Eastern spiritual philosophies, it is surprising that he seemed to pay very little attention to past incarnation memories, which are of critical importance in any form of deep experiential psychotherapy. Despite the above differences, Jungians seem, in general, to be the most conceptually equipped to deal with the phenomenology of holotropic states of consciousness, provided they can get used to the dramatic form the experiences take and become comfortable with them. Knowledge of Jungian psychology and mythology is essential for safe and rewarding psychonautics.

Fragment uit: The Way of the Psychonaut Volume One: Encyclopedia for Inner Journeys
Copyright © 2019 by Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D.'
Note: Stanislav Grof bespreekt de heren Sigmund Freud, Alfred Adler, Wilhelm Reich, Otto Rank uitgebreid maar heb ik tussenuit gelaten wegens te lang.

Belangrijkste is Stanislav Grof's opmerking: "Knowledge of Jungian psychology and mythology is essential for safe and rewarding psychonautics."

Wie Jung zegt, zegt dromen, maar ja, daar kan je als vrijdenker niets mee, want wat de wetenschap over Jung zegt is duidelijk....
Maar los van wat de wetenschap over Jung (en dromen) zegt kunnen sommige dromen redelijk intens zijn ja.

Tip: Ayahuasca word wel is wakker dromen genoemd.
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
Berjan
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Berichten: 1610
Lid geworden op: 23 mar 2010 08:39

Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door Berjan »

bonifacius schreef: 21 dec 2023 13:23
outremer schreef: 20 dec 2023 15:58 Passen dromen eigenlijk ook in dit plaatje ?
Die kunnen soms ook wel redelijk intens zijn.

Voor de duidelijkheid : ik bedoel dit al een serieuze vraag hé.
Als we over dromen beginnen komen we bij Jung uit en we weten wat de wetenschap daar over zegt hé.
De huidige stand van de wetenschap: negatief oordeel over psychoanalyse

https://skepp.be/nl/psychoanalyse-freud-jung-lacan
Wat zijn de feiten en wat zegt de wetenschap?

Jung geldt in de hedendaagse wetenschappelijk georiënteerde psychologie of psychiatrie helemaal niet als een autoriteit. Jung was een notoir gelover in astrologie, spiritualisme, telepathie, telekinie, helderziendheid en extrasensorische waarneming.
...

https://skepp.be/nl/insights-discovery-r
Ok, dat zegt stichting SKEPP en de wetenschap over Jung.
Nu is zien wat vermaard psychiater Stanislav Grof over Jung zegt...
''

Fragment uit: The Way of the Psychonaut Volume One: Encyclopedia for Inner Journeys
Copyright © 2019 by Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D.'
Note: Stanislav Grof bespreekt de heren Sigmund Freud, Alfred Adler, Wilhelm Reich, Otto Rank uitgebreid maar heb ik tussenuit gelaten wegens te lang.

Belangrijkste is Stanislav Grof's opmerking: "Knowledge of Jungian psychology and mythology is essential for safe and rewarding psychonautics."

Wie Jung zegt, zegt dromen, maar ja, daar kan je als vrijdenker niets mee, want wat de wetenschap over Jung zegt is duidelijk....
Maar los van wat de wetenschap over Jung (en dromen) zegt kunnen sommige dromen redelijk intens zijn ja.

Tip: Ayahuasca word wel is wakker dromen genoemd.
Kan je ook Nederlandse teksten plaatsen? Er zijn mensen die het Engels niet goed machtig zijn, of die geen zin/tijd hebben om dit allemaal om te zetten naar het Nederlands.

Wat Skepp zegt over Jung is trouwens wel raar en vreemd. Ze nemen hem niet serieus omdat hij in allerlei andere dingen geloofden? Dan moeten ze Einstein en Newton ook niet serieus nemen. Vooral Newton was nogal een zweverig type.
Ook Einstein overigens, die meende dat wetenschap zonder religie koud was, en religie zonder wetenschap onzin.
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Peter van Velzen
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Berichten: 21097
Lid geworden op: 02 mei 2010 10:51
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door Peter van Velzen »

bonifacius schreef: 21 dec 2023 12:57
Peter van Velzen schreef: 21 dec 2023 02:31 Ik neem zonder meer aan dat iemand die psychedelisch middelen heeft geslikt, rare ideeën krijgt en zich bij voorbeeld verbeeldt dat een kind het "geboortekanaal" als een tunnel ervaart. Ik acht dat idee evenwel volstrekt onjuist.
Met rare ideeën bedoel je "hallucinaties" en dromen (waarvan de meest bedrog zijn - liedje van Marco Borsato), pure verbeelding die nergens op slaat. :roll:
Ik bedoel raar als vreemd of zeldzaam. Sommige vreemde ideeën blijken achteraf juist, vandaar dat ik toevoegde dat ik het idee in kwestie volstrekt onjuist achtte. Het slaat wel degelijk ergens op, maar lijkt mij niet juist (niet in overeenstemming met de fysieke waarneming (dat de baby op dát moment nog niet kijken kan).
Ik wens u alle goeds
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bonifacius
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

Peter van Velzen schreef: 22 dec 2023 01:28 Ik bedoel raar als vreemd of zeldzaam. Sommige vreemde ideeën blijken achteraf juist, vandaar dat ik toevoegde dat ik het idee in kwestie volstrekt onjuist achtte. Het slaat wel degelijk ergens op, maar lijkt mij niet juist (niet in overeenstemming met de fysieke waarneming (dat de baby op dát moment nog niet kijken kan).
Ja Peter, jou lijk het niet juist dat een baby op dát moment nog niet kan kijken, maar zoals ik je al eerder schreef...
bonifacius schreef: 20 dec 2023 00:04
Peter van Velzen schreef: 19 dec 2023 01:26 Waar Grof zijn vermaardheid ook aan te danken heeft, zijn theorie over BDE's is even onwetenschappelijk als welke andere dan ook. zie Wikipedia
Jij, men, zal altijd gelovers en niet gelovers vinden rond dit onderwerp.
...
bonifacius schreef: 20 dec 2023 00:04....
Als je zelf een bijna-dood ervaring hebt gehad, een 'klassieke' of een 'halve' veroorzaakt door 5-Me0-DMT het sterkste psychedelicum te wereld, wat ook psychiater Stanislav Grof gerookt heeft bovenop zijn vele onderzoek en ervaring met LSD vanaf 1967 al wordt het heel moeilijk een niet gelover te blijven.
Zie ook Stanislav Grof eigen worstelen daarmee...
'THE KARMIC TRIANGLE: Time Travel to Ancient Egypt
...
In spite of all this impressive evidence, I found it impossible to accept that we were dealing here with an authentic phenomenon. The conceptual barrier involved was of a qualitatively different level than the one that stood in the way of accepting the capacity of the brain of the newborn to register the ordeal of birth. After all, the brain of the newborn, myelinized or not, is a very complex material system. But the possibility of retrieving memories of entire scenes from times preceding conception, often by centuries, seemed simply too preposterous.

If we subscribe to the materialistic worldview of Western science, ancestral and racial memories would have to be transmitted by the sperm and the ovum, the only material connection we have to events preceding our conception. The carrier of this information would have to be the chromosomes and, more specifically, the DNA. And in the case of past-life memories even this faint material bridge to the past is missing because they cross not only ancestral, but often even racial, hereditary lines. For example, it is not uncommon for Caucasians to have past-life experiences as black Africans, native Americans, or Asians, and vice versa.

It took some powerful personal experiences for me to change my attitude toward past-life memories.
...

Fragment uit: When the Impossible Happens - Adventures in Non-Ordinary Realities
Stanislav Grof M.D., Ph.D.
(published 2006)
Jij als typische vrijdenker onderschrijft het materialistische wereldbeeld van de westerse wetenschap overduidelijk en dat zal je dus blijven doen zolang je zelf geen persoonlijke krachtige ervaring hebt gehad door middel van holotropisch (psychedelisch) ademwerk, traditionele psychedelica of misschien zelfs wel een natuurlijke bijna-dood ervaring, wie weet.
Stel je voor: Boem, in één klap vrijdenker af! :lol:

Ik heb zelf 33 jaar geleden zo'n krachtige ervaringen als Stanislav Grof al gehad want toen al een opleiding gevolgd tot "Breathwork Practitioner" die al mijn toenmalige overtuigingen - dewelke net zoals jij nu (nog) op een materialistische wereldbeeld gebaseerd waren - volledig op zijn kop zette.
En ik vind net dat zo'n opleiding heden ten dage ook nog heel populair is. Zie > https://joyoflifebreathwork.com/Service ... 51cfa93c86
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door heeck »

Bonifacius,

Je haalt Grof aan alsof zijn waarschuwing juist als aanmoediging zou moeten gelden:
Bonifacius schreef:
Grof schreef:But the possibility of retrieving memories of entire scenes from times preceding conception, often by centuries, seemed simply too preposterous.


Ik ben in het doolhof van de Minotaurus *) wel eens een neushoorn tegengekomen waar ik het terstond angstig van in mijn broek deed, maar waarmee ik even later aan een roze lintje, samen door het centrum van het grote raam van de kathedraal van Reims heen vloog en verrukt uitzicht kreeg op een voor-middeleeuws dorp met rieten daken en mensen in lompen-achtige kleding.

Dat was ook ver voor mijn conceptie heeft plaats gevonden, maar daarom geen basis voor een overgang naar mijn akuut danwel aarzelend geloven in waarlijk buiitenlijfelijke excursies van een wat losgeslagen bewustzijn.

Sommige gevoelens kloppen niet, maar versieren het bestaan.

Roeland
*)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaurus
Begrip is een waan met een warm gevoel. Dus Mijdt Spijt.
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bonifacius
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door bonifacius »

heeck schreef: 23 dec 2023 12:41 Bonifacius,

Je haalt Grof aan alsof zijn waarschuwing juist als aanmoediging zou moeten gelden:
Bonifacius schreef:
Grof schreef:But the possibility of retrieving memories of entire scenes from times preceding conception, often by centuries, seemed simply too preposterous.
Jaja, een zin uit de context halen in een poging om je overtuiging te bevestigen. 8*)
Transpersoonlijke psychologie is duidelijk niet voor jou weggelegd, maar dat is het voor geen enkele vrijdenker natuurlijk.
Definitie
"Trans" betekent "over".
"Transpersoonlijk" zou je dus kunnen omschrijven als dat wat het persoonlijke overstijgt.

Gewone therapie met iets extra's

Transpersoonlijke therapie is niet in de eerste plaats een nieuw soort therapie naast de andere therapeutische visies waarbij één of andere speciale therapeutische techniek gebruikt wordt, en zich daardoor duidelijk onderscheidt van anders georiënteerde denkrichtingen. Integendeel het opteert juist voor een integratie van de verschillende opvattingen. Transpersoonlijke psychotherapie is "gewone" psychotherapie met iets extra's, namelijk aandacht voor de diepere betekenis van alles wat ons overkomt.

De transpersoonlijke psychotherapie is een stroming binnen de psychologie die de persoon benadert in zijn totaliteit en dus ook aandacht heeft voor de transpersoonlijke dimensie waarbij de mens als mystiek en spiritueel wezen centraal staat. Zij gaat ervan uit dat deze ervaringen op natuurlijke wijze te verklaren en daardoor ook wetenschappelijk te onderzoeken zijn. Zowel de Ik-Gij geöriënteerde (Martin Buber, Viktor Frankl), als de Ziels- (Carl Gustav Jung, Roberto Assagioli) en de Zijnsgerichte psychotherapie (Ken Wilber, Hans Knibbe) krijgen een plaats in dit geheel. Voortbordurend op het werk van deze genoemde namen, werd zij omstreeks 1970 door Abraham Maslow, Stanislav Grof and Anthony Sutich als "vierde" stroming (naast de psychoanalytische, behaviouristische en humanistische varianten) in de psychologie gelanceerd.

https://heartfulness.be/Therapie/Transp ... rapie.html
- De enige constante in het leven is verandering.
- Spiritualiteit? Laat me niet lachen, dat is het leven zelf!
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Re: BDE - onderzoek, conclusies en interpretaties

Bericht door TIBERIUS CLAUDIUS »

bonifacius schreef: 23 dec 2023 14:36 Transpersoonlijke psychologie is duidelijk niet voor jou weggelegd, maar dat is het voor geen enkele vrijdenker natuurlijk.
Je verbeeld je nogal wat.
Je doet uit de hoogte tot op het beledigende toe.
En als er nu meer keizers zijn geweest dan maanden, wat dan, geachte senatoren?
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