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Ik zie zojuist pas dat de schrijver zelf heeft gereageerd. Ik heb het boek gisteren besteld, en ben erg nieuwsgierig naar de inhoud.

Devious schreef:Ik zie zojuist pas dat de schrijver zelf heeft gereageerd. Ik heb het boek gisteren besteld, en ben erg nieuwsgierig naar de inhoud.

It's a honour for us that mr. Loftus visited Freethinker. I only could say welcome and be our guest. By the way is there a dutch translation available from mr. Loftus writings?

Uiterst plezierig dat we deze bekende schrijver in ons midden hebben. Jammer dat freethinker een virtueel medium is, een zogenaamde walk of fame kennen we niet. Zelf hoop ik nog op een kort bezoekje van Richard Dawkins. Dit soort mensen maken het ons aanzienlijk gemakkelijker. Ik moet bij de laatste persoon denken aan het naschrift in God als Misvatting.

Here's Google's translation of Aldus sprak Zarathoestra:
Thus spoke Zara Thoe Strasbourg
Too beautiful a translation to leave unmentioned.

But some translations are amazingly accurate. I let Google translate some of my aphorisms:

Het doel heiligt de middelen,-
dacht God volgens alle gelovigen.
The end justifies the means, --
God thought, according to all believers.

Een beer op de weg is altijd nog beter dan een spook in je hoofd.
A bear on the road is still better than a ghost in your head.

Niet Christus is de steen des aanstoots, maar rationaliteit die Christus ontmaskert.
Christ is not the stumbling block, but rationality which exposes Christ.

Dominee: Alle goede dingen bestaan in drieën.
Toehoorder: Zoals het eeuwige onbegrip tussen de abrahamitische godsdiensten?
Pastor: All good things come in threes.
Listener: Like the eternal incomprehension between the Abrahamic religions?

Als men van de duivel spreekt, is hij zo nabij als je hem maar kan krijgen,
aangezien hij slechts een woord is.
If we speak of the devil, he is as close as you can get him,
since he is only a word.

Een babylonische spraakverwarring is een kleinigheid vergeleken met de godsdienstige verwarring in de wereld.
A Babylonian confusion is a trifle compared with the religious confusion in the world.

Alle begin is moeilijk, behalve dat van de bijbel.
All beginning is difficult, except that of the Bible.

Nieuwe bezems vegen schoon, behalve in de bijbel en de koran.
New brooms sweep clean, except in the Bible and the Koran.

Er zijn veel zaken die beslist niet door de beugel kunnen,
behalve wanneer ze zijn opgenomen in een Heilig Boek.
There are many things that are absolutely unacceptable,
except when they are included in a Holy Book.

De mens leeft niet van brood alleen,
maar van ieder woord dat klinkt uit de mond van zijn verbeelding.
Man does not live on bread alone,
but on every word that sounds from the mouth of his imagination.

Leven als God in Frankrijk is nog wel eens iets anders dan leven als Calvinist in Nederland.
Living as God in France is quite something different than life as a Calvinist in the Netherlands.

Vandaag Hosanna, en morgen viert men alweer de kruisiging.
Hosanna today, and tomorrow we celebrate again the crucifixion.

Overal tuiniers die armzalige boompjes laten groeien met de kunstmest van het bijgeloof.
Everywhere poor gardeners who grow trees with the fertilizer of superstition.

De dwaas denkt in zijn hart: ik heb een persoonlijke relatie met God.
The fool thinks in his heart: I have a personal relationship with God.



The worst scenario: Google translates the opposite of what the original intends:
Bergen en dalen ontmoeten elkaar niet, wetenschap en godsdienst evenmin.
Mountains and valleys meet each other, science and religion either.
(original text says:
Mountains and valleys never meet each other, nor science and religion.)

Rereformed schreef:Here's Google's translation of Aldus sprak Zarathoestra:
Thus spoke Zara Thoe Strasbourg

Translations are tough but I sludge through it.

Your task is immense and difficult.

Well, in one sense my task is an easy one in that my book and Blog debunk evangelical Christianity. Hey, even the liberals and Catholics do that, right? And I use their writings to do so in many cases. My chosen task is largely a negative one. I seek mainly to debunk. That's my focus. The easy part is providing the arguments. The hard part is the bitter attacks that come from them as I do so. The reason I don't deal with other brands of Christianity and/or other religious faiths is because atheism is the end result of the process of elimination (there are several other reasons, too). These Christians already reject all other faiths, including liberalism. So by debunking their faith the probable result will be agnosticism or atheism. I don't have to defend anything. Just debunk their faith. The result might be that they too will become completed atheists and deny the Christian God just like they deny all other gods.

You're not anonymous so everything you say will leave a permanent track. You must always be on your guard and bear in mind that someone like you is vulnerable to bitter attacks. You must always be on your guard and bear in mind that someone like you is very vulnerable to attacks. So absolute sincerity and a noble mind is required of you. I wish you all the best! I wish you all the best!

Thank you! I am attacked bitterly, yes, by ignorant Christians with an axe to grind. You do realize that the first charge against heretic groups in the past was that they were homosexuals (gasp!). My aim, though, is the respectful intelligent and educated Christian, anyway. People like that have not treated me with distain. They know I'm sincere and that's good enough. But I do bite back when bitten. That's just me.

John W. Loftus schreef:I am attacked bitterly, yes, by ignorant Christians with an axe to grind.

Well, the same complaint (of bitter, personal attacks) is made by evangelical and liberal theologians about atheist reactions to theologians and scientists expounding a theistic belief.

Richard Dawkins' brushing aside believers writing books in response to 'The God Delusion' as 'fleas' comes to mind. But us here have even been criticised as being nasty and partisan against people of faith.

Theoloog schreef:

John W. Loftus schreef:I am attacked bitterly, yes, by ignorant Christians with an axe to grind.

Well, the same complaint (of bitter, personal attacks) is made by evangelical and liberal theologians about atheist reactions to theologians and scientists expounding a theistic belief.

This is typically the case when it comes down to internet discussions. But this can hardly be provoked by your book as such, John. It is written in a confrontational but strictly formal debating style without any sense of bitterness or disdain. Only an endless stream of business-like arguments against the faith. My compliments for that.

On this forum we have the same experience. When a christian comes along the user often starts complaining about 'the tone of the debate' after two or three replies.

Richard Dawkins' brushing aside believers writing books in response to 'The God Delusion' as 'fleas' comes to mind. But us here have even been criticised as being nasty and partisan against people of faith.

To my mind comes the discussion we recently had with a learned christian scholar about 'the problem of evil'. We all tried to do our best not to offend him. I certainly did my best, but ironically because of some remarks I made (it seems to me) he left. Here a translation of the situation:


MOODY BLUE wrote:
Look, this is just the point why I don't welcome the input from Mr. Easter so much as some people here. He just knows a lot, offers it as a quasi-packed philosophical text, and misleads people.
It is normal for the evangelist to spreak humbug about his own faith (or their religion), they use literally anything that can be of use.

DEVIOUS wrote: if so, then it is no problem for anyone to see through such acrobatics, and by supplying intelligent questions and intelligent answers we can still go to the heart of the case.
Do you really think someone - (I don't mean Mr. Easter in particular, I am speaking in general) - could lead people here astray?

Let's just assume that Mr Easter has come here to learn something. A little faith in humanity cannot hurt right? : D

Sincerely.


REREFORMED wrote: I see no problem. On the contrary, when a Christian arrives at our forum we always get the best freethinker writings debunking christianity.

It is exactly like it is said in another topic running: religious belief thrives on feeling and ignoring arguments. When a Christian really tries to make his faith rational and makes an effort to defend the likelihood of its truthfulness, then he loses the debate almost by definition. Only Mr. Easter can be (as he would see it) led astray. The fact is that the Internet is quite new for him and he shows in many ways how much he has lived a sheltered life, far away from 'the world', so I would instead be more inclined to send a warning to Mr. Easter: someone with a lot of rationality and education who dares to come into the den of Freethinkers will see his faith diminished after a while. But if not then I greatly admire the mind of such a person.

Mr. EASTER wrote: Folks, the time has come that I unhook. There is a limit to what a man can handle in terms of personal attacks and patronising tone which is now approximately reached. Maybe we started on the wrong foot, although I only accepted a challenge, I think. But I give you into consideration that these discussions would attract a greater variety of participants and new entrants when people who hold other beliefs wouldn't all the time be confronted with this air of complacency (self-satisfaction, your last post was a good example, ReReformed), ad hominems and a closed attitude.
I let you have the victory you crave for, and am going to spend my time in a better way.

In a last farewell speech and explanation for his leaving the forum he especially chose me as a target for his venom:

Mr. EASTER: The way the Great Helmsman of the Forum, Rereformed works. I recognize it from the way some sect leaders in some Christian circles work. They involve themselves in as many discussions that are going on, out of fear that something may happen that undermines their influence. Alternately they chastise and praise, they patronise and give small compliments. They are very warm and personal to prospective converts, but very dirty against people who show independence and critical thought. They constantly make alliances with like-minded people. In short, he is a skilled manipulator and organizer of a group culture. I have had enough such people around me to know that they have no self-knowledge (despite all the fine talk about it) and also that they're not at all interested in what others think. They only have a strong opinion they want to impose on others. Sometimes they do this in a very charming way, but when needed they can also be very mean. Given his responses to my comments, I really believe that he does not realize how offensive and manipulative he is. But unfortunately it is true.

--- ---

For me it's difficult to deal with this kind of reaction. I almost retreated from this forum because of these remarks. Of course I try to learn from it, take the criticism and avoid this manner of speech in the future. Everyone has his own pride you mustn't tread on. But on the other hand, I know the way christianity works and consciously want to beat them with their own weapon. It is my aim to de-convert people. It's the whole point of everything I have written about the christian faith. I really believe that christians don't ever realize how offensive and manipulative their religion is. And when being attacked in this way I even try to turn that criticism against themselves and present myself as a 'cookie baked in their own bakery'. For me, the longer I am an ex-christian, the more this whole religion thing boils down to a game of words and methods to sell it.

As a last reply to Mr. Easter I wrote: "A skilled manipulator and organiser of a group culture? - Thanks for the compliment. For that matter, how could it be otherwise, half of my life I haven't done much else than studying Jesus and Paul.
Not interested in beliefs of other persons? Are you aware of any character in the NT who is?
Perhaps I need to refresh your memory. The apostle John writes "We are certain that we come from God and that the rest of the world is under the power of the devil." It's impossible for me to even come close to this apex of christian arrogance.
My message to you: it's easier to run away than to grow up."

John W. Loftus schreef:I like your reasonable style. In America there is a lot of vitriol in most boards on both sides, at least the ones I’ve seen.

Make no mistake: what you consider 'reasonable style' is considered by some to be as narrow-minded and as hard as that of the fundamentalistic believer we're supposed to be arguing against. And that in the US there is a lot of vitriol... I can't say I'm surprised, really. It seems that it is somehow easier for issues to be taken to extremes over there. Plus that at least in this country, religion has been declawed to a much, much greater extent so there is no need for an extra-vicious style.

By the way, John, is THIS the site you're referring to as your blog?

I love that site. I recently read the story of Ken Daniels ( http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c ... _7337.html ). It reminded me a bit of my own story, my original plan 30 years ago was also to become a Wycliffe Bible Translator.

There is an intresting interview available with John Loftus by the Infidel Guy at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI1N9jGy ... re=channel

Gaaf zeg, Loftus zelf op bezoek (volgens de inlognaam).

Ik heb dit boek net gesponsord aan een YouTube kid van 16, die zich KabaneTheChristian noemt en de hele tijd allerlei dingen roept over oude schrijvers ten bewijs van de waarheid van de bijbel. Op een nogal arrogante manier (dat andere Christenen ook stoort, schitterende oproep van een collega van hem: Veritas48). Hij (Kabane) had sponsors gevraagd voor een stapeltje van die ouwe christentractaten en ik bood dan aan om dit boek voor het te betalen. Hij heeft toegezegd het te lezen 'en zou er een video aan wijden om het te debunken'. Lol: open mind?
Maar sindsdien heb ik wat dingen gepost die hij misschien wel niet zo leuk vond, hij reageert nogal snel erg geprikkeld, dus geen idee of dat er nog van komt. Hij was onlangs te horen op The Atheist Experience die hij belde. Matt Dillahunty ging er tegenin en werd steeds meer kortaf helaas, omdat Kabane, die zich daar Tommy noemde, maar niet wilde begrijpen dat er een verschil is tussen het accepteren dat Plato misschien wel de werken van Plato schreef, en het geloven in de wonderen die de evangelisten schreven.