De ontrafeling van de evangeliën

Christendom en Judaïsme, contradicties in de bijbel, de ethiek van de bijbel etc..

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Henry II
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Re: De ontrafeling van de evangeliën

Bericht door Henry II » 18 dec 2019 10:52

Rereformed schreef:
15 dec 2019 05:39
Psalm 22:17
Een bende boosdoeners heeft mij omsingeld,
die mijn handen en voeten doorboren.
Als er één OT tekst is die de bron is voor de evangeliën, dan is het die van Psalm 22 wel:

"Mijn god, mijn God, waarom hebt u mij verlaten?" (Eli, eli lama sabachtani)
"Door iedereen versmaad, bij het volk veracht"
"Als water ben ik uitgegoten" (water stroomde uit zijn zij wond en geen bloed)
"Verdelen mijn kleren onder elkaar" (de Romeinse soldaten die dobbelen om de kleren)
"Zij hebben mijn handen en voeten doorboord" (spijkers door handen en voeten)

Ik kan er niets anders van maken, dan dat vooral uit deze Psalm heel veel 'geleend' is om een mooi evangelie verhaal van te brouwen. Blijkbaar was het vastspijkeren al een bekende gewoonte.
Vraag niet hoe het kan, maar profiteer ervan.

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Ronaldus67
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Re: De ontrafeling van de evangeliën

Bericht door Ronaldus67 » 12 jan 2020 13:04

Henry II schreef:
18 dec 2019 10:52
Rereformed schreef:
15 dec 2019 05:39
Psalm 22:17
Een bende boosdoeners heeft mij omsingeld,
die mijn handen en voeten doorboren.
Als er één OT tekst is die de bron is voor de evangeliën, dan is het die van Psalm 22 wel:

"Mijn god, mijn God, waarom hebt u mij verlaten?" (Eli, eli lama sabachtani)
"Door iedereen versmaad, bij het volk veracht"
"Als water ben ik uitgegoten" (water stroomde uit zijn zij wond en geen bloed)
"Verdelen mijn kleren onder elkaar" (de Romeinse soldaten die dobbelen om de kleren)
"Zij hebben mijn handen en voeten doorboord" (spijkers door handen en voeten)

Ik kan er niets anders van maken, dan dat vooral uit deze Psalm heel veel 'geleend' is om een mooi evangelie verhaal van te brouwen. Blijkbaar was het vastspijkeren al een bekende gewoonte.
Er valt nog iets opmerkelijks over Psalm 22 te vermelden; en dan met name over het 17e vers.
In de Masoretische Tekst van de joodse bijbel (Tenach) komt het doorboren van handen en voeten in dit vers helemaal niet voor. Lees hier wat er in de Tenach staat:
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
Geen doorboren van handen en voeten dus, maar wel iets over een leeuw. Het lijkt erop dat ook hier in de christelijke bijbel het nodige knip-en-plakwerk is verricht. De Masoretische Tekst is weliswaar voornamelijk tussen de zevende en tiende eeuw overgeschreven, maar wordt desondanks (sinds de ontdekking van de Dode Zee-rollen) overwegend als zeer betrouwbaar gezien. Iets waar overigens ook een gelovige christen graag mee schermt wanneer het om de zogenaamde algehele betrouwbaarheid van zijn bijbel gaat.

Voor wie meer wil weten over bovenstaande is dit filmpje (interview) met rabbijn Tovia Singer mogelijk interessant.
I sat by the ocean.

rgprice
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Lid geworden op: 18 nov 2019 12:37

Re: De ontrafeling van de evangeliën

Bericht door rgprice » 23 jan 2020 13:40

Looks like you've finished addressing this topic. Just to add a few comments.

I think most of the assessment of the book in this thread has been right on. This is the first book I've written. Looking back at it now, there is a lot that could be improved about it. I've considered doing a major revision, but now I'm thinking I'll just write a new book with a larger scope that will revisit some of this material but also significantly expand the scope as well. Probably something along the lines of, "Deciphering the Bible Proves Jesus Never Existed".

The book I'm working on now doesn't spend much time on assessing actual biblical works, its primarily concerned with the broader context of religion and prophecy in classical antiquity and the Roman era. In terms of the Jesus movement itself I spend a lot of time discussing material from Qumran and how that sheds light on the origins of Jesus worship, etc.

But as for this book, there is a lot more to be shown about how the Gospel of Mark fits into the context of Pauline and anti-Pauline early Christian writings, and this is why I will probably write a new book instead of just re-writing this book. I think a very valid criticism of this book is that I didn't make enough use of other scholarship in the field. Tom Dykstra said this in his review of the book. This is very true. This book was produced almost entirely from my own reading and analysis of biblical texts, with very little support from other scholars. I see now that this was a big mistake, as I could have made the case presented in this book a lot stronger. But I'll correct that in the new books.

Honestly I'm surprised that this issue is so controversial and not more widely accepted because, IMO, the case is clear and obvious and the evidence is so strong. I'd say that while this book does a decent job of putting forth its case, it's really only about 30% as strong as the case can be. I've left so much out, glossed over so much, didn't realize so much when I wrote the book.

The next version of this, "Deciphering the Bible" is going to be 10X better. I've done so much more research after having published the book. When I published this I thought it was really a very strong case that fully explained most of the material, but now I see I was only scratching the surface. But still, I think the overall thesis of this book is correct, its just not as well laid out and supported as it could be. Also, I think that while the war definitely does play a strong role in the Gospel of Mark, how Mark fits into the overall Pauline landscape is more important. I didn't spend enough time in this book addressing the Pauline community and how Mark fits into the context of all of the other writings of the NT, which I why I'll be expanding the scope in the next version of the book.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss, and any reviews on Amazon (especially in English) are always welcome ;)

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Re: De ontrafeling van de evangeliën

Bericht door Rereformed » 23 jan 2020 14:40

rgprice schreef:
23 jan 2020 13:40
Looks like you've finished addressing this topic.
It sure looks like it, but that's only because of my laziness. Although I could also blame the Christmas holiday, the endless dark and gloomy Finnish winter (I am a Finn) that sucks up all energy. And a new puppy in the house to take care of! :dog:
At some time, probably on Groundhog day, I will come up from my burrow and continue the book review.
Just to add a few comments.

I think a very valid criticism of this book is that I didn't make enough use of other scholarship in the field. Tom Dykstra said this in his review of the book. This is very true. This book was produced almost entirely from my own reading and analysis of biblical texts, with very little support from other scholars. I see now that this was a big mistake, as I could have made the case presented in this book a lot stronger. But I'll correct that in the new books. I've done so much more research after having published the book. When I published this I thought it was really a very strong case that fully explained most of the material, but now I see I was only scratching the surface.
Don't blame yourself for it! I myself have read numerous books on this most interesting subject, and the reason why I found your book intriguing was the fact that you seemed to arrive at conclusions wholly on your own, as if you were not acquainted with all the other literature on this subject. It actually makes your case more compelling.
Honestly I am surprised that this issue is so controversial and not more widely accepted because, IMO, the case is clear and obvious and the evidence is so strong. I'd say that while this book does a decent job of putting forth its case, it's really only about 30% as strong as the case can be. I've left so much out, glossed over so much, didn't realize so much when I wrote the book.
I have critiqued writers who dismiss the notion of a Jesus who never existed (e.g. here). Their arguments for gainsaying it are never strong. But I have always shied away from calling myself a Jesus mythicist. However, I think I must agree with you, the evidence is strong to the point of the case being obvious.
The next version of this, "Deciphering the Bible" is going to be 10X better. But still, I think the overall thesis of this book is correct, its just not as well laid out and supported as it could be. Also, I think that while the war definitely does play a strong role in the Gospel of Mark, how Mark fits into the overall Pauline landscape is more important. I didn't spend enough time in this book addressing the Pauline community and how Mark fits into the context of all of the other writings of the NT, which I why I'll be expanding the scope in the next version of the book.
I am looking forward to reading your next book!


P.S. Will you tell us what the mysterious R G stands for? :)
Born OK the first time

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